Curse

Rolain · Jul 16, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

I love it how Anet's idea of balancing skills just churns out one faceroll FotM after another. So pvp now just becomes gimmick v gimmick.

Killed u man · Jul 16, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolain

I love it how Anet's idea of balancing skills just churns out one faceroll FotM after another. So pvp now just becomes gimmick v gimmick.

Problem with a large chunk of these builds is a handfull of broken skills which have it's counterparts in other professions nerfed, but they themselves seem to go untouched.

Brutal Weapon is one of those skills. Every form of sway has always abused this skill in one way or the other. BBwarrior lack about 100-150 damage to kill without brutal. With brutal, they can often pull a kill with just one combo, making it just enough to push kills even against good teams.
Rspike, nuf' said.
R/A-way was never all that much damage, and despite having it's own broken skills (escape, shattering assault and now assault enchantments), good teams, or even semi good teams could stay alive long enough to atleast push some kills... if it wasn't for brutal weapon, which makes every below-par damage dealer become a top-notch red bar pumper.

Soul Twisting is another of those recently introduced skills. Although still unused in GvG because the GvG-scene is next to dead, and people only copy other people there, it's only a matter of time before they realize how broken this skill really is.
The way it works is so that you could choose to spam all 3 defence spirits (shelter, union, displacement) OR, and this is where it's versatility comes in, against specfic builds, only opt to spam one skill. If you face a BBsway, you can litterealy have him poop one displacement after the other, and despite it dying really fast (in litteraly 2 seconds) you can use 1 of them every 5 seconds, providing plenty of defence.
Against any form of spike build, this bar usually means auto wins, cuz he can just sit in the back and spam shelter all night.

Krill · Jul 16, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

The BB chain is a case study in anet's incompetence. First they nerf FGJ, ruining a perfectly good warrior skill. Then they nerf flail for secondary warriors, which was mostly done for turret rangers but I'm sure sins were also a consideration. Next BB itself was nerfed to requiring 12 hammer attribute, but it still didn't change how the build played. Finally BB was changed to a primary warrior only skill and it's still being abused on warriors with daggers. Four nerfs and it's still not balanced, because it can't be balanced having that much damage compression in a KD.

Another point to consider is the effect of a zealous mod with daggers; they provide too much energy in combos with multiple dual attacks. The BB dagger warrior and assault enchant ranger would not be nearly as effective if the zealous tang was not available in PvP.

About sway itself, the first version that cropped up with escape scythes and trappers was for low ranked pugs to farm UW with. It's kinda funny and sad at the same time how sway builds have morphed into something that people are completely serious about playing and trying to hold HoH with.

Missing HB · Jul 16, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

As i already said , the bbway is good in theory , but in pratic , lot of ppl fail with it.
Compared to actual r/a build played , it's extremly bad . And seriously , if BBway was that hard to handle , why did the actual " balanced " build not change ANY skill in their bars for over a year now ?

I don't see really a problem in that build , since it doesnt seems to win hall much ( while balanced does a lot , especially on dead hour , you can come any day check it .. ) , and isn't that annoying ( even a randomway with blahks , or a poor sfway can beat it .. ) .

Anyway , what's fun is that people asked to nerf BB in Hero Battles for months ( it was very OP there ) , and they waited for it to be deleted to finally start updating the skill ..

Sirius Bsns · Jul 16, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I think Anet should look up the BB warriors' assassin attack skills and just staple a 5 critical strikes requirement and make those attacks fail 100% otherwise. It'd also be awefully right if they did the same for all shadowstepping spells and skills. If they stapled a +5 C.Strikes investment requirement to all skills that have potential secondary abuse, it'd enable the Assassin to actually BE be Assassin, and ONLY the Assassin primary should ever have this! Assassins are supposed to be a glass cannon with high kill power and high recharge dual attacks, not Warriors, not Rangers, not Dervishes, only Assassins.

Also, if this change were to occur, it'd be awefully nice if Anet restored Black Lotus Strike to offhand attack, Black Spider Strike to 5 energy cost, Shadow Prison to 5 energy and 20s recharge. Also, remove aftercast delays on all elite shadow steps.

Benderama · Jul 16, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

as pointless as it is (to balance skills, only buffing others which are unbalanced, if it happens?) it certainley keeps the game more alive, and is more fun. pity some skills still need buffs. anyway, i'd rather have this than the old "set in stone" solo PvE builds going around everywhere, or a completely balanced game where all skills have no advantage over others.

Coast · Jul 16, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I think Anet should look up the BB warriors' assassin attack skills and just staple a 5 critical strikes requirement and make those attacks fail 100% otherwise. It'd also be awefully right if they did the same for all shadowstepping spells and skills. If they stapled a +5 C.Strikes investment requirement to all skills that have potential secondary abuse, it'd enable the Assassin to actually BE be Assassin, and ONLY the Assassin primary should ever have this! Assassins are supposed to be a glass cannon with high kill power and high recharge dual attacks, not Warriors, not Rangers, not Dervishes, only Assassins.

Also, if this change were to occur, it'd be awefully nice if Anet restored Black Lotus Strike to offhand attack, Black Spider Strike to 5 energy cost, Shadow Prison to 5 energy and 20s recharge. Also, remove aftercast delays on all elite shadow steps.

wasn't the recharge 15sec in the very start of nf?(s prison)

Sirius Bsns · Jul 16, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

wasn't the recharge 15sec in the very start of nf?(s prison)

I don't remember, but 20 seconds is balanced, and it used to be 20s at some point. That I do remember. Also, by decreasing the cost to 5e and removing after cast delay as well as giving it a 5 critical strikes investment requirement, this means that ONLY Assassin primaries can use it. It'd be completely balanced, imho.

diabiosx · Jul 17, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Im pretty sure Anet wants to keep Sway/bbway alive to create more diversity in builds.

Sauron The Greatest · Jul 17, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolain

I love it how Anet's idea of balancing skills just churns out one faceroll FotM after another. So pvp now just becomes gimmick v gimmick.

It has always been like that, so why did you start this pointless thread?

Reverend Dr · Jul 17, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

With the exception of the very recently (historically) buffed jagged/fox, successful assassin bars have been categorized by the removal of lead attacks. Aura of displacement had offhand -> Dual, offhand -> Dual. Shadow prison had the same. Palm strike could skip straight to duals. The former was not terribly overpowered as horns absolutely had to be first dual, which made it lose a lot of killing power. Shadow prison, with black spider and black lotus, was the first to be able to use two full offensive dual attacks. It was also the first to be nerfed hard. Palm strike got a couple of nerfs after its inception.

The backbreaker chain is two accounts of falling, the same as the two "black" spells of shadow prison. I don't even like the idea of skipping lead attacks (think about it, every lead attack except the new jagged [edit: mantis]is worthless). However, if we are going to have offhands that can skip leads, then you shouldn't be able to stack them on the top of each other like this. Just like they did with black spider and black lotus, falling spider and falling lotus both can't just be starting offhand attacks with the same exact requirement.

EDIT: forgot about black manits, course it was buffed at the exact same time as jagged

*lemming* · Jul 18, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

(think about it, every lead attack except the new jagged is worthless)

Black Mantis Thrust

Everything else in that post is on point though.

Fluffy Kittens · Jul 18, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Man this bbway seriously needs a nerf, if build like this existed 2+ years ago it would've been nerfed long ago... unknown bad players winning all the time with it because they can press 1-2-3 and have huge defense with soul twist and other stuff. Nerf prism, soul twist and its fine I guess it wouldn't be so op then even tho it wouldnt hurt to nerf warriors with daggers because they do too much dmg in too low time.

Sauron The Greatest · Jul 19, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

Man this bbway seriously needs a nerf, if build like this existed 2+ years ago it would've been nerfed long ago... unknown bad players winning all the time with it because they can press 1-2-3 and have huge defense with soul twist and other stuff. Nerf prism, soul twist and its fine I guess it wouldn't be so op then even tho it wouldnt hurt to nerf warriors with daggers because they do too much dmg in too low time.

BB warriors don't press 1-2-3, they usually go: 1-2-click the ground-switch to daggers set-3-4-5-6-repeat if necessary.

Missing HB · Jul 19, 2010, 06:41 AM // 06:41

It would be fun to nerf prism to see how people would react , and what build would they use . Actually , that's kinda right that this build would have been nerfed fast if it existed 2 years ago .
But , for BB build the only problem is the fact that warriors got higher armor than assassins , thus on shrines maps , it leads always to lucky heal on 10 health , and other maps are almost impossible to win if you dont have a weapon spammer.

Rolain · Jul 21, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

As i already said , the bbway is good in theory , but in pratic , lot of ppl fail with it.
Compared to actual r/a build played , it's extremly bad . And seriously , if BBway was that hard to handle , why did the actual " balanced " build not change ANY skill in their bars for over a year now ?

I don't see really a problem in that build , since it doesnt seems to win hall much ( while balanced does a lot , especially on dead hour , you can come any day check it .. ) , and isn't that annoying ( even a randomway with blahks , or a poor sfway can beat it .. ) .

Anyway , what's fun is that people asked to nerf BB in Hero Battles for months ( it was very OP there ) , and they waited for it to be deleted to finally start updating the skill ..

It's easy enough to counter, as the MB for my guild runs I just find the NR and kill it as soon as it appears, but the fact that it's run so often makes it such a pain in the ass when i'm forming non guild teams, because it's the only thing people want to run.

Fluffy Kittens · Jul 21, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

ofc its the only thing people want to run coz its really the easiest thing to play. You just attack random targets with imba combo spamming 1-2-3 and you still kill and it really ruins the game

Missing HB · Jul 22, 2010, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

ofc its the only thing people want to run coz its really the easiest thing to play. You just attack random targets with imba combo spamming 1-2-3 and you still kill and it really ruins the game

You need non-stupid warriors aswell to kill ( the same for those kind of builds , IWAY , r/a's, etc.. ) , but yes , i now realized it's almost unbeatable on 1v1 halls ( which happens all the day ) , and it's quite annoying to see some people ( all in the same guild )hold for 5 hours , while any SF way can beat them on normal 1v1.

That's why maybe they should do some changes on prisms bars , so the rest of the teambuild change aswell..

Regulus X · Jul 22, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

If they tack on a minimum requirement of 8 Critical Strikes investment for falling lotus/spider and make it 100% fail otherwise, BB warriors will be no more.

Edwards · Jul 22, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

The worst thing about bbsway is the rit. Perma displacement + shelter + union is stupidly annoying to play against.

Nerf that, and maybe look at Ether Prism (imo 50% dmg reduction, slightly reduced energy gain) and BBSway would be more reasonable build.